Hidden 6 yrs ago Post by Holy Soldier
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Holy Soldier Divine Justice

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Persistent World ideas are tricky things, and in this case, I must disagree again.

One thing that was slightly useful to me in the first place, and part of why I didn't raise a shit on the first suggestion of EH (though I never really supported it, either), is the fact it had structure. Everything was connected and could be connected, there were limits, there was a general thing going on. The suggestion is now literally what exists at the moment, because EH no longer has the structure. All the things you mention could be done with the current structure. While it may come out better if the entire PW forum was rewritten to make a clear indication (if that route was run through), that this is what the people there want.


That's the idea to just have it rewritten as opposed to gotten rid of. I don't RP there so my comments about it have come from players who have RP there and the player Normie said that the persistent world had an overarching story that all participants were writing under. This is what led me to believe that it wasn't a multiverse because a multiverse has multiple stories than just one.

But even if it is rewritten, I still would not be in favor. Because what you suggest is effectively what exists now, and I fundamentally disagree with a broad, unrestricted multiverse. It serves no purpose. In a sense, the current forums are literally the same thing. If a couple GMs want to link and create a multiverse, they will do that. If they don't want people to interfere with their canon/multiverse, they can, and will do that too. If they want to make a true Persistant World, which is distinct from a multiverse, then the GMs can link their canons. None of that justifies the creation and maintenance of a unique forum.


The purpose of the broad, unrestricted multiverse is to appease all types of players and all characters they would ever want to create. The multiverse is called the multiverse because it is multiple universes that "interact." All conflict and drama that happens is cross-dimension. Players who want their own personal story can RP that out and if someone tries to barge in on it, then just like regular RP etiquette, they ask them to step out.

I would instead consider it viable if the idea was approached with more unity and structure, not only in general rules and "what you do here might affect something elsewhere", but also in genre. A balance should be achieved. Yes, players need flexibility. That's the core of the idea. But it also requires structure and unity, not only in terms of timeline, but also in things like power level and technology (in my opinion and based on how the site works, especially the community base). A specific fantasy PW would make it easier to avoid a fairly average swordsmen being absolutely obliterated by a sci-fi grunt with a gun and heavy armor.


If the player designed their swordsman to be able to deflect gunfire with his sword or have the armor to guard him against sci-fi genre weaponry, then they would do just fine. Again, this is all dependent on the players and how they design their characters. The Multiverse combines genre like a high fantasy/final fantasy universe. You could play a Medieval Knight versus a fleet of space ships and have him use magic to wipe them all out. It puts no restriction on the imagination of the writers.

It would make more consistency at large, making it easier for plots and characters to connect (in a way, like a roleplay MMO, only with more flexibility). It would allow easier maintenance and judgements as to what is too powerful and what is not, because you can look to fantasy stereotypes to make more balanced decisions when accepting characters and making judgements should a conflict arise (as compared to cowboi supagunslinger vs Archmage of Canterbury or something, and a drama potentially arising from that combination when the two entities meet). Repeat a similar philosophy with modern and sci-fi settings, and in the future, add more if there is enough popular demand. Finally, my main, short term revision idea would be to put the PW section in line with other sections so it does not somehow get standing over all the regular forums despite having an abysmally small fraction of the activity and relevance seen in the three sections below it.


No one is ever too powerful in the Multiverse. Also, I forgot to mention. The rules and structure are decided by those who join those kingdoms, nations, clans, factions, armada, etc. Those who don't join are lawless, literally. Whether they become vigilantes or terrorists or just sellswords, hired gun, etc. is up to the writers.

As it is now, and as the idea seems to propose, there's just not enough to bring things together. It becomes clutter that might as well go into the regular sections anyways.

It's not an easy overnight solution, but I think you're more likely to find the answer in structure and a degree of unity, not in making divided verses that don't even need to exist in the same forum.

And as for existing games, they would not have to be deleted. I believe they would work just fine dumped into the casual section, as they're largely independent entities anyways.

In short: Sure, have a multiverse. But it does not need its own forum. Not as it is described, and not as the EH operates right now.


The Multiverse was just to spare the EH from being deleted and to instead, broaden it.

Hidden 6 yrs ago Post by ArenaSnow
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Will keep this short - Don't think it will work

Would like to see - Nation RP redone to "Developing Universe" Section with multiple sub sections: World, Nation, Other & Checks. Just combine bascially combing the areas of E.H., NRP, and WB and leave it open to a larger versatility. Might actually give a single section the numbers it is looking for to succeed.


While Nation RP surviving as a concept is debatable, given its low use at the moment, I wouldn't agree with merging it into a 'developing universe' on any basis that suggest that they're actually a fit. NRP roleplays have their own canons. 'Developing Universe' (done in a way to justify being split from the main sections) would be too universal.
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Hidden 6 yrs ago Post by KoL
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<Snipped quote by ArenaSnow>

If the player designed their swordsman to be able to deflect gunfire with his sword or have the armor to guard him against sci-fi genre weaponry, then they would do just fine. Again, this is all dependent on the players and how they design their characters. The Multiverse combines genre like a high fantasy/final fantasy universe. You could play a Medieval Knight versus a fleet of space ships and have him use magic to wipe them all out. It puts no restriction on the imagination of the writers.


At this point you are playing Star Wars The Force Unleash, I guess it would be more constructive to make a Star Wars RP if you want one than deal with the mess that the idea of unrestricted multiverses invoke.
Hidden 6 yrs ago Post by ArenaSnow
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That's the idea to just have it rewritten as opposed to gotten rid of. I don't RP there so my comments about it have come from players who have RP there and the player Normie said that the persistent world had an overarching story that all participants were writing under. This is what led me to believe that it wasn't a multiverse because a multiverse has multiple stories than just one.


Normie gives you what it 'should' be. In practice, there is no overarching story (though they may be working on it) and only a couple threads exist to do their own thing. There simply isn't enough content. In future posts, it may be best to split EH from the multiverse idea, as they are different concepts. I'd be willing to do that if you are.

The purpose of the broad, unrestricted multiverse is to appease all types of players and all characters they would ever want to create. The multiverse is called the multiverse because it is multiple universes that "interact." All conflict and drama that happens is cross-dimension. Players who want their own personal story can RP that out and if someone tries to barge in on it, then just like regular RP etiquette, they ask them to step out.

This is literally the main sections in a nutshell.
- Main sections cater to all forms of characters with their own worlds/verses
- GMs can cross interact if they wish (important point)
- Players do their own personal stories without risk of being barged in if they don't want to
- If they want to cross concepts, the PM box is freely accessible for GMs to communicate.

If the player designed their swordsman to be able to deflect gunfire with his sword or have the armor to guard him against sci-fi genre weaponry, then they would do just fine. Again, this is all dependent on the players and how they design their characters. The Multiverse combines genre like a high fantasy/final fantasy universe. You could play a Medieval Knight versus a fleet of space ships and have him use magic to wipe them all out. It puts no restriction on the imagination of the writers.

Which (besides the sheer ridiculousness of it which people can explore in their own threads without bringing that absurdity to a larger community) can be done as is. If people feel like it. Probably in the free section.

No one is ever too powerful in the Multiverse. Also, I forgot to mention. The rules and structure are decided by those who join those kingdoms, nations, clans, factions, armada, etc. Those who don't join are lawless, literally. Whether they become vigilantes or terrorists or just sellswords, hired gun, etc. is up to the writers.


Such an atmosphere of no structure I believe should be reserved to the free section. It may sound elitist, but I simply do not want to see this, nor would I ever give my support to people being able to go in without rules and do whatever they want. It may work on other forums, but I cannot see a degree of success happening on this one.

The Multiverse was just to spare the EH from being deleted and to instead, broaden it.


Broadening it would only serve the purpose of making it even less relevant. Barely any structure now, becoming no structure, would leave zero acceptable room to maintain it as a unique section. Also, it does not need to be deleted, as the appropriate, active threads could be merged into the main sections or put into an archive.
Hidden 6 yrs ago Post by Mattchstick
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I'm against the multiverse concept, mainly because I think it's unrealistic. The best RP experience is one dedicated to one specific story line or concept, rather than individuals following their own story line in the same world as other people. However, I am definitely in favor of scooting the Persistent World section down below the Roleplay section. This is my second account. I took a long break from RPGuild a few years ago, and PW was the first thing I saw when I came back. I was really interested for about 10 minutes, when I realized it was barely moving. Really, it's a bit discouraging seeing it at the top of the page. In fact, my first ever post on this account was in a thread discussing how to fix Expanding Horizons.

Maybe you should check it out.
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Hidden 6 yrs ago Post by BrokenPromise
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@Mattchstick +100%

When I joined EH, I didn't really know what to do. There were too many different writing levels, too many places to put your character, and too many power levels. Even though I joined a planet with 5 people on it, no one could really play together. Because there was no focus, everyone was moving in a different direction. I quickly lost interest after writing my first post.

Maybe if EH grew into something that had 200-300 active players it could support that kind of diversity, but you can't start off that way. There's no real setting, and it makes it hard to really feel like you're part of the world. especially when everyone is essentially from a different world. I can see the appeal of having anime waifus walking along side loony tunes or action heroes, but I don't think it'll last. Not without some explanation for it anyway.

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Hidden 6 yrs ago Post by Mattchstick
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The only convincing multiverse concept I think will really succeed is one that is a single roleplay with multiple worlds built into it already. Players can be whoever and have whatever powers, but they all have to fall under one single universal set of guidelines. Magic, guns, swords, doesn't matter, but there would need to be some sort of basic leveling system for actual combat. It would need one main overarching plot, with separate plots and events on top of it (that complement it) for people who want to do their own thing, as long as it was moderated by a GM and Co-GMs.

Sounds good, right? Well, it already exists. Holy Soldier is already running a video game version of this exact concept, down to the rules, leveling, and multiple storylines...in Casual. For over a year. And it's active. And he's doing a great job.

So, why make a site-wide multiverse section when, if you put the work in, you can do it yourself in Casual (or Advanced)?
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Hidden 6 yrs ago Post by Dion
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To be honest the sole reason you need a PW subforum over a singular thread in any existing section is 'because I'm too stupid to keep track of multiple events within 1 thread.' So really, you're asking us to accommodate incompetence. Which is a fair request since RPG is known to accommodate incompetence.
Hidden 6 yrs ago Post by Ellri
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Our impression of it, is that it is trying (and failing) to bite off too much at once. That it would be better to start up a single persistent world in a single setting and RP type, be it sci-fi, fantasy or whatever, rather than trying to establish a persistent world for all settings at once.

that opinion was in part formed before it even got started, but unfortunately it hasn't been disproven.

Rather than having "fantasy planet" "superhero planet" "sci-fi planet" "tentacle love planet" and so on, we'd suggest going for just one of those, let that grow up properly before even considering to add anything else.

Which setting to start it with should be decided by the community to a certain degree.

Even with such, there's a major consideration to make... Should it be in a setting with vast amounts of pre-established lore (like Star Wars or Lord of the Rings) or should it be original?

The former comes with baggage of varying lore quality, but the latter comes with the cost of having to define everything.

You need to put in a lot of work for any level of persistent worlds, and you need to let it decompose a bit in the making before you refurbish it to make it work. We certainly needed that for our star wars RP (it's on its third iteration, with more lore for each successive iteration.). And that RP doesn't even count as truly being a persistent world.
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Hidden 6 yrs ago Post by Mattchstick
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The purpose of this discussion is to talk about possible revision or deletion of the Persistent World section, which has been highly debatable for quite the while.


I call for the deletion of the Persistent Worlds section, with respect to the roleplayers in the one active thread as the only viable argument against it.

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Hidden 6 yrs ago Post by Mattchstick
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In real life, there is one human universe with many countries, with different rules and stories in each country. You will notice that each of them has specific borders. Sure, you can interact with and travel to other countries, but once you cross their borders, you are subject to the rules and regulations of that country. There are no "universal rules" to Earth. Everyone is a part of their individual country, and each country has it's own thing going. Even in international waters, ships have to obey the rules of the country who's flag they're flying.

You could compare countries to types of RP as well. Except 'murica is the only Free one. The rest are Casuals. All the Advanced ones died off a long time ago.
Hidden 6 yrs ago Post by Holy Soldier
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For a Persistent World to succeed, it must be moderated by a single person or group of people, who dictate universal rules and expectation (Usually it is just moderated by a moderator to make sure everyone is being respectful and following the site rules. You talk about a MV like the one I described would not exist, but it does. But seeing as it would require a ton of people to be interested in the idea, such as the existing one that is on Roleplay Gateway has over 100+ writers in it, it would most likely not survive on this site due to that lack thereof alone versus any of the other claims.). Self-regulation with multiple sets of rules does not work. It leads to imbalance and continuity disasters. One RPer might prefer playing real-world characters limited by their physical abilities, another might prefer playing a psychopathic human-killing demi-god. The interaction would be disastrous, as the first player would be forced to suddenly develop supreme powers or die (Or if that character comes from a modern fiction world, being friends with a space marine from another world, he can borrow technology to devise weapons that still have him as an average joe but now he can properly defend himself without having to make any drastic character changes at all. MV encourages writers to think outside the box because a MV RP is not a single RP, run under one setting, with one type of writer in it. It is a massive world where every genre coexists. The rules and regulations are decided by whatever country, faction, clan, etc. your character affiliates with. If they are lawless, then they are actually treated as such and can have WANTED posters placed on them, adding more genuine drama to the character type that writer is role playing. As mentioned before, if anything ever happened that you didn't want. Basic RP Etiquette; you have the right to tell the other player that you don't want to RP whatever it is that was brought against you. Communication isn't difficult.), neither of which is even remotely fair to them. Just as RPGuild has a universal set of rules on site behavior and reporting, a PW must have universal rules on IC behavior. It also must have a story line of some kind that connects all of the worlds, so that players have objectives to complete if they run out of ones to make on their own. That requires a considerable amount of work for the GM(s), who would have to fully commit to it for, theoretically, eternity. (The IC universal rules would just be don't be a dick and always ask the other player for consent before attempting to intrude on their story. Plain and simple.)

It was said that "Multiverses...have no segregation when it comes to writing ability. Both the Free, Casual, and Advanced writers should be able to write in there without problem," but why? (I will tell you why. If I am role playing Emperor Blah Blah from the Blah Planet. If majority of the players who join my kingdom are Free-level writers, let's say 30, and the planet I wish to conquer only has 3 Advanced Players, I will easily be able to take that planet with my 30 free writers because I have actual morale. Of course, NPCs exist, but the players that will actually do the damage are the ones being PCed. They are the main characters not the NPCs. It's all about having bodies when it comes to planet versus planet and nation versus nation. Realistically, in actual MV wars, the Free players fight against the Free, Casual against the Casual, and instead of them being segregated into those categories, it is instead based on that individual player and the writing ability they have demonstrated. You could write 5 pages, but all of those pages could be absolute garbage. Instead of being labeled according to your writing level, you would just face someone who writes about the same level of quality. The reason why this site is broken up into sections is because it is NOT a MV and doesn't have one. It is instead to basically advertise the level (can't always say quality) of writing ability to be expected when looking for stories to join. If you join the MV, you'll be involved in numerous stories. Not just one. As many as you involve your character in. They'll never be bored because writers always have some situation going on.)There is really no point in a universe consisting of Free, Casual, and Advanced roleplayers. Each of them will stick to their own standard of posting, in the world that they built, with the rules and lore that they made up, which is the same as them being separated into subforums as the site already has. (They aren't separated because the MV brings all factions, kingdoms, planets, etc together. Always happens. They are making a faction for a reason. Usually to take out another. They aren't a group of friends who just want to write with themselves and nobody else. The MV doesn't influence those kinds of games. You want to do that then look at the "Free, Casual, and Advanced" section. Go RP with yourselves.) Besides, Holy Soldier has already demonstrated (and is actively demonstrating) that a Persistent World/Multiverse is totally viable as a standalone RP. (Although my game has multiple universes in it because it is taking place in a video game multiverse with a central hub for cross-dimension interaction, I still consider it a single game. It is not a real multiverse. What would make it a multiverse would be let's say another RP that was a multiverse of pure anime characters came over and now there are two games crossing. That would make it a multiverse. Now imagine more games interchanging plots and stories. That is a multiverse.)

It was also said that "The MV also provides a home for 'main characters' characters that writers create and cannot find a RP or seem to be able to make a RP where they will fit." (All characters you could ever create fit in the MV because the MV encompasses all possible genres. So MVs are the best place for main characters that don't fit anywhere else.) Not finding a RP or making an RP is the same problem whether it's a multiverse/PW or not. You'd have to either make or find a RP in the multiverse for that character. If they don't fit in any other RP, or in an RP made by the creator, they're not going to fit in the multiverse. (They'll fit because you basically are "jumping-into" a situation. MV is an open game.)

Not only that, but, while inactivity or players dropping out of an RP is inconvenient, characters dropping out of a persistent world multiverse is much worse. If two RPs succeed in overlapping, an inactive character negatively impacts both of them, and GMs will have to work together to decide what happens, rather than tending to their own RP. That's extra work that could be skipped by either RP being run independently with NPCs controlled by the GM. (This is only detrimental to a game with a single GM, single plot, single main character that everyone was riding on. The MV has multiple characters. If the player for Emperor Bob went AWOL IRL, he would be replaced by the next in line. The MV survives off player interest. If one character in an important position left the game, he would easily be replaced. Chances are his position was contested or his enemies were waiting for him to die or vanish so they can take over his empire. The story goes on. If he magically returned, Emperor Bob will have to reclaim his empire, which means a war and therefore, more story.)

Also, the current one is super dead, minus the aforementioned active roleplay. It is discouraging to see it at the top of the page, especially for new members who would see it before anything else and immediately be turned away by the lack of activity. It would benefit the site as a whole to at least move it, though removing it seems a better option.


I made my comments in yellow. In conclusion, as much as MVs do work on most sites, it requires player interest. If majority of the players are not interested in a MV and if the site isn't large enough to even have one that would succeed, then there doesn't need to be a MV.
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Hidden 6 yrs ago 6 yrs ago Post by Mattchstick
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TO THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN TAGGED: The purpose of this discussion is to talk about possible revision or deletion of the Persistent World section, which has been highly debatable for quite the while. All of you have been active in the most recent OOC or IC post, so I am tagging you so that you can provide your feedback on the matter. Users unable to have a civil conversation will be reported to forum staff. If you are a user who cannot disagree with another user without without getting offended, angry, or upset, then you will be asked to leave.

So are we just not going to talk about this anymore? 100% of the people who have posted here, in the Roleplaying Discussion forum, say that PW needs to be changed or removed completely, with a majority vote being towards total removal. Anything with unanimous negative feedback from users should be addressed by the administration, especially on a site that depends entirely on user activity.

Let's take a look at some data.
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-Most recent PW OOC: Anyone up for a dinosaur planet?. Created two months ago. Has not begun (planned to begin today). As of a week ago, it has four interested players: @Normie, @Circ, @SIGINT, and @Scarescrow.
-Second-most recent PW OOC: No posts for 17 days. No interested players.
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-Most recent PW IC: Ecetopia: Rzail: Karnorouri’s Pillar. Created 7 months ago. 79 IC posts. Most recent IC: 11 hours ago. As of one week ago, eight out of 12 players have posted. All players: @Silvan Haven, @CoyoteLovely, @Hekazu, @EchoesofOld, @Mataus, @Ciaran, Normie, @Tristwich, @SpawnMeme, @Kasai Uchiha, @Dark Light, and @Liaison.
-Second-most recent PW IC: No posts for three months. Four players: @Pumpkinbot, @KillBox, @superservo27, and @FrankenDaughter.

Conclusion: The PW currently supports one active RP with twelve players, eight active. The PW also supports one active OOC for a planned RP with four players. This makes for a total of between eight and fifteen players (Normie being involved in multiple threads).

As of now, 12 people have posted in this thread to either revise or delete the PW section.
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Hidden 6 yrs ago Post by Normie
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The only reason I didn't weigh in is that I don't actually look at this part of the site. Deleting Expanding Horizons, uhh, please don't? If you must, please let us keep our RP thread and lore somehow.... just deleting the thread that I'm currently having fun posting in seems a bit rude, to put it mildly.

Personally I don't see why you would be so invested in getting a section of the site deleted. If you don't care for it, just don't post in it?
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Hidden 6 yrs ago Post by CoyoteLovely
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I, too, find myself a little confused by this topic.

What's gained by losing the Persistent World? I admit, I was thinking about diving out of it myself - but I don't see any benefit from taking it off the site if other people are using it (even if that number is smaller than expected). I think it would be of benefit to try to tweak it to see if it could be more useful to RPers across the site - but there does seem to be some hate for it that I don't necessarily understand.

So, I come back to my question - what does the site gain by taking down the Persistent World?
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Hidden 6 yrs ago Post by Ciaran
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Agreed. You delete PW, you upset 8 to 15 people. You leave it, you upset no one (that I am aware of). While it is more stagnant than perhaps it was originally intended for, it still has value to a handful of people, while deleting it helps no one.
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Hidden 6 yrs ago Post by Mattchstick
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@Normie@CoyoteLovely@Ciaran

It is a comparison between how people are using Expanded Horizons and how it was intended to be used. The fact is that there is only one actual RP going on. Subsequently, RPs are not crossing over or interacting, which was the whole point of EH in the first place. The sole active RP is doing well on its own, which begs the question, why bother having it in Expanded Horizons? It appears to be self-contained, and even if it wasn't, it wouldn't matter. User-created worlds are of no value if the GMs in charge of them are not maintaining them. The GM of the active RP would be better off redesigning that world on their own. It is a gigantic project, posted above all the other RPs, with a huge scale and fantastic plans, and it is very dead, to the point that members here consider it an eyesore. RPGuild is promoting a deserted section above all the other RPs, and it's a darn shame.

In other words, the one active RP would succeed just as well in an existing section (likely Casual or Advanced) as it would in Expanding Horizon. In fact, it would do much better, since those sections are more active, and the GM will have full control over the RP, i.e. you won't have to wait for a mod to approve anything.

It doesn't boil down to "If you don't like it, don't post there." That would apply to individual RPs, which are nestled in with the others of their class. This is a whole block of content on the main page. If it's going to be at the top, in its own class, it should be active enough to justify it, and it's not.

As for gain and losses, the site is improved by having RPs correctly organized again. It helps activity and streamlines the main page, and it ultimately removes what is ultimately a failed endeavor from the main page, where it is proudly displayed for a vast majority of players to disregard. If you would examine the rest of this thread, you'll notice that leaving it as it is already upsets quite a few people, who would rather have it removed or scrapped rather than changed.

HOWEVER, I don't have any interest in closing the active RP in EH, even if it is only one RP. Therefore, I recommend that the active RP(s) be moved to another subsection and for Expanded Horizons to be terminated. I have no interest in deliberately discouraging any number of people, and the same likely goes for everyone else. I don't know the capabilities of the staff here but I imagine it is possible to move an RP from one section to another so that the players involved may continue at their leisure.

Another acceptable outcome, already accepted by everyone else, would be for Expanded Horizons to be moved below the Roleplay section so that it doesn't detract from the other 99% of RPs that are actually progressing.
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Hidden 6 yrs ago Post by CoyoteLovely
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I can see moving it further down in the list - that I'll grant you. But there's a lot to be said for the meeting of new people in a Persistent setting when it's done right. An open place for people to just play and find new partners is invaluable.

That said - I think EH is bogged down in needing character approvals and the fighting 'rules' that don't seem to make that much difference. I'd almost advocate for just making it a lawless jump-in RP land and let people do what they want with mod intervention only if someone breaks site rules.
Hidden 6 yrs ago Post by CoyoteLovely
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Dupe, sorry.
Hidden 6 yrs ago Post by Mattchstick
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@CoyoteLovely Sounds like you agree with Holy Soldier. Check the first post in this thread.
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